View Full Version : Lent
What is Lent? It is the 40 days (excluding Sundays) from Ash Wednesday (today) to the Saturday before Easter. It’s an important time in the Christian calendar where we look forward to the events of the first Easter and is often a somber time for Christians to reflect. Many decide to give up something important in their lives to acknowledge Jesus’ sacrifice, others prefer to do something positive, such as volunteering or donating the cost of their Starbucks coffee each day to charity. The ‘ash’ in Ash Wednesday symbolises death and repentance and the day is normally a time for reflection. In many churches you will see people with ash crosses on their forehead as a symbol of this.
I’m in a WhatsApp group with some women from my church, and we are studying and chatting about some of Luke’s Gospel every day during Lent, focusing on Jesus’ journey to Jerusalem, where he was crucified, and died to save us. So I thought I would post about these verses, and the group’s thoughts on them, each day during Lent for anyone to consider, reflect and comment.
We do have a private section called The Sanctuary on the forum which is a ‘ quiet, understanding space for anyone who has questions or just wants to talk about faith - open to those with any faith or no faith.’ If you’d like to join that section, please pm Suzi.
I get that not everybody will be interested in this, and many will disagree with what will be posted but, if that’s the case, feel free to ignore this thread rather than posting negative comments.
I'm really interested in this. Thank you.
I've decided to be more committed to my exercises, be kinder to me and to dedicate time for prayer/reflection each day...
Ash Wednesday’s focus was on Luke 9:51 - “When the days drew near for him to be taken up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem”. He had started on the road to the cross. I’d never really looked properly at this verse before but it struck me how human Jesus can be at times. He ‘set his face’ sounds to me similar to he ‘gritted his teeth’. Not that he ever considered not going towards that cross, but that he was human, and was not looking forward to that sacrifice. He was God on earth 100% but had to also be 100% human to be a suitable substitute for us on that cross. And his human side was sad.
Luke 9:51-54,56
[51] As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. [52] And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; [53] but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. [54] When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them ?” [56] Then he and his disciples went to another village.
(This is such an extreme response and harks back to Elijah, the prophet, who was around during the Omride Dynasty of Israel (from 885 bc onwards) and called down fire from heaven (I Kings 18: 20-40) to make a point about whose god had true power.)
The Jews and Samaritans hated each other, and had done for centuries, but they shared millenniums of history and worshipped the same God (John 4: 4-26) and Jesus had already made it clear he’d come for the Samaritans too. Maybe James and John needed that example to open their minds to the truth that the gospel is for all? It was something the early Jerusalem church struggled with but eventually overcame. It’s something some elements of the church still struggle with - the ‘they’re not our kind’ attitude...... It was wrong then and it’s wrong now.
See, I've always hated the "them" and "us" kind of thing. I am sure that actually all that is needed is love and tolerance. No need to reign down fire on someone because they believe something different to you...
Stella180
18-02-21, 12:39 PM
Someone got into a religious debate a couple of weeks ok over a comment that I was following. The general gist was that one person claimed that Christianity was the “one true religion”. There were many angry comments as you can imagine but the one that stood out was a guy who calmly pointed out that Jesus was a Jew. If that didn’t cancel out the who’s right and who’s wrong then nothing will. We all live on this earth together so we may as well get along regardless of beliefs, race, sex, age etc. We are all different yet we are also all the same.
Luke 9:57-62
[57] As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” [58] Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” [59] He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” [60] Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” [61] Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” [62] Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
This is a passage all about putting Jesus first - above everything else including family. As someone who spent most of my life saying ‘well, yes, I WANT to follow you, Lord but....’. I always find today’s passage a challenge. I will be eternally grateful that I have been forgiven for 30+ years of putting the ‘cares and riches and pleasures of life’ before Jesus, and that I have been accepted into God’s Kingdom.
I'm struggling with this reading today. I see that it's about putting Jesus first, but doesn't that scream against every fiber of your humanity? I need to be able to do the things my humanity needs me to do - take care of my children, my husband, my family, and I don't feel able to put other things ahead of them itms? Where does that leave me? Someone accepted or not? If by putting the needs of those around me and those in need in front of my spiritual self means I'm not accepted, is that something I want to be accepted into in the first place? Does that make sense?
It does make sense, it’s a tough passage. I think it’s a challenge to each of those men whether they really understand what it takes to follow Christ - one, what if you’ve got nowhere to sleep, how will you cope?, the second, apparently it reads as if the man’s father is still alive (‘I’ll follow you in my own time’), the third, I think is questioning whether the man is always going to look back at his previous life. After all, in 1 Kings 19: 19-21, Elisha was able to say goodbye and held a going away party for his friends before becoming a trainee prophet!
The study I was looking at today references the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8: 4-8) where these men seemed to be test cases for that parable. The seed falling on the pathway and being snatched away(they hear the Word but don’t believe), the seed falling on shallow soil (they hear the Word with joy but, when tested, fall away), and the seed that falls among thorns (they believe but are choked with life’s worries, riches and pleasures).
Does that help?
Stella180
19-02-21, 01:16 PM
I agree with you Suzi. Blindly following someone while ignoring those that love and rely on you doesn’t sound like a good thing to me or am I missing something?
or am I missing something?
A little bit, yes. It’s not that literal. These men were all saying, ‘I want to follow you but there’s so much else going on in my life’. What Jesus was saying was that, if what’s going on in your lives is stopping you following me, then you obviously don’t want to follow me. I’m fortunate, Si has always supported me having a faith but many, many people (mainly women) have partners who won’t support them and actively discourage them. This makes it very difficult to keep a faith and many fall away rather than lose their partner. Jesus is asking us to be realistic and honest with ourselves whether dealing with the difficulties is too much
Stella180
19-02-21, 01:32 PM
Ok so it’s more a case that these people are making excuses for why they can’t follow him.
I've had partners who have had faith and been scarily pushy with it, I've had others who saw faith as a thing to mock etc. Now I have Marc who has always understood I had a faith, I lost it and have been trying to regain it... He's been actively supportive and it's been really fab. He's grown from being a complete non believer to someone who has an open mind and is happy to come to Church on a Wednesday (I miss that so much) for the small service..
Thank you for talking me through this one Paula.I've never really talked about things like this before, I'm finding it really interesting.
Luke 10:25-37 [25] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [26] “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” [27] He answered, “ 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' ” [28] “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” [29] But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” [30] In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. [31] A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. [32] So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. [33] But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. [34] He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. [35] The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' [36] “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” [37] The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
This is probably the most famous parable in the Bible and once again, returns to the hatred between the Jews and Samaritans. For context, the priest is a Jew, and the Levites are the historical tribe of the Israelites who were responsible for all religious matters. So the priest and Levite had a religious responsibility to help the man, whereas the Samaritan would have known he was a Jew and be expected to walk by.
The expert in the Law was trying to test Jesus and expose him as an uneducated carpenter from Galilee who had no right to be teaching the Law. So ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ Jesus answers with the law given to Moses by God:
Deuteronomy 6:5
[5] Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18
[18] “ 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
The lawyer must have been spitting. So he tries again ‘who is my neighbour?’ Jesus doesn’t answer this question but gives him an example. The lawyer has to then answer his own question and cannot give any answer but ‘the one who had mercy’.
This section isn’t just about mercy, it’s also about perceptions and expectations of Jesus. My separate bible reading today talks about how Jesus was seen in his home town of Galilee:
Mark 6:2-3
[2] When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What's this wisdom that has been given him? What are these remarkable miracles he is performing? [3] Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
Even the people he grew up with, and despite all the signs and wonders he did, didn't want to accept who he is....
The parable of the Good Samaritan has always resonated with me. It's what I've always strived to do - not judge and help those who I don't know in the same way for those I do. I s'pose loosely that's how this place started - I didn't want anyone else to go through what I did without having anywhere they could turn for help, support and maybe some answers and a community which understand and listen. Not that I'm for one second claiming to be anywhere like the good Samaritan however! I'm not, because those same reasons for starting here were also so I had all those things too...
Stella180
20-02-21, 01:02 PM
I remember an incident many years ago, I fell out with a friend in a big way after he cheated with his best friends girlfriend. She was a vile person and after warning him that she would only use him the same way she did his friend and just discard him when she was done was didn’t speak for the longest of times. Anyway, true to form I heard from anyone friend that she had literally dumped his stuff on the doorstep and left him with nowhere to go. The last person anyone expected to pick him up off the street and take him in was me but they is exactly what I did. He had no family to turn to and had severed ties with anyone who could’ve helped him because of this woman. I got a text from a friend asking why I did it after what happened between us. The answer being that I hoped if ever I was in his position someone would do the same for me and I treat others the way I would expect to be treated. Kindness isn’t something you give because someone has earned it. It’s something you do because it’s the right thing to do.
And Suzi, I am so grateful you did start DWD, you have changed so many lives because of it, mine being one of them.
That's a perfect example of someone doing what I consider to be the "right thing"....
Luke 10:38-42
[38] As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. [39] She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. [40] But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!” [41] “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, [42] but few things are needed---or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
I don’t think this passage is about ‘poor’ Martha having to do everything while her sister sat on her backside. This is about service to Jesus. It seems to me that Martha was reprimanded, not because she was rushing around preparing sandwiches but because of her attitude to service - she was making a point about how much she was ‘serving’ and how little Mary was. She was bigging up her role that day and forgetting about the reason she was supposed to be serving - to serve Christ. Who serves better - the person that donates to a worthy cause because of the publicity and kudos it gives them, or the person who quietly donates every month but expects nothing, no recognition, in return?
I think it's something we've all been guilty off - I know I have. I think you're right, it definitely feels that way. However, poor Martha!
Oh I agree - poor Martha. She must have been devastated :(
Stella180
22-02-21, 02:01 PM
I am a master of trying to do the right thing and getting it drastically wrong. I am Martha.
OldMike
22-02-21, 02:58 PM
As someone who first was believer then an atheist and is now in the don't know camp Paula I find the extracts you've posted from the bible and your interpretations very thought provoking, thanks.
I am a master of trying to do the right thing and getting it drastically wrong. I am Martha.
No, because you don't stand and shout about all you do and belittle someone else for doing nothing....
As someone who first was believer then an atheist and is now in the don't know camp Paula I find the extracts you've posted from the bible and your interpretations very thought provoking, thanks.
Thank you, Mike, that warmed the cockles of my heart :)
No, because you don't stand and shout about all you do and belittle someone else for doing nothing....
Couldn’t agree more!
I'm really enjoying this, I've never done any bible study apart from the "Live Lent" app that I've used for this year and last year. Thank you for this. It makes it so much more accessible and less stuffy or cliquey or scary itms?
Good, that’s what I was hoping for ;)
Luke 11:1-13
[1] One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” [2] He said to them, “When you pray, say: “ 'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. [3] Give us each day our daily bread. [4] Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. ' ” [5] Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; [6] a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.' [7] And suppose the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' [8] I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need. [9] “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. [10] For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. [11] “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? [12] Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? [13] If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
How to pray:
It’s something that pretty much every Christian struggles with, so Jesus has provided the perfect framework.
Martin Luther, in the 16th century, in response to a question from his barber on how to pray, wrote a 7,000 word booklet entitled A Simple Way to Pray, around the lines of the Lord’s Prayer. I’ve read it, it’s not that simple and some of it is not appropriate for life in the 21st century, but the principle behind it is good - use the lord’s Prayer as a basis for your daily prayers. After all, that’s what Jesus intended
I'd never thought of using the Lord's Prayer as a basis, then branching off... I've been trying to follow this for a while now and I find it makes things much more accessible for me..
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/eb/f7/2eebf77839bbff17602574990c8f92b0.jpg
I'm not sure I get where the loaves fit, but I'm going to carry on thinking about it for a while..
Luke 11:14-26
[14] Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed. [15] But some of them said, “By Beelzebul, the prince of demons, he is driving out demons.” [16] Others tested him by asking for a sign from heaven. [17] Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. [18] If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebul. [19] Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. [20] But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. [21] “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. [22] But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder. [23] “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. [24] “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' [25] When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. [26] Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”
It took me years to get even the slightest handle on this. Jesus is responding to the claim that he was working with Satan by asking why, if that was the case, would he be casting out one of Satan’s evil minions (and not the cute, yellow kind!). Instead, he is storming the strong man’s fortress and throwing out his possessions - showing he is so much stronger than Satan could ever be.
I need to say here that the Bible is not suggesting that everyone who is unable to speak has a demon inside of them. Luke (who was a doctor) is not attributing physical illness or disability to Satan - but that this particular man’s issues were rooted in a demon. The thinking, generally, is that Jesus’s presence on this earth upped Satan’s game somewhat, causing some to be possessed by a demon. I know all this sounds like the basis for a horror film, but if you believe in God, and the Son of God, of course you believe in Satan.....
Stella180
24-02-21, 10:26 AM
This is where I find things difficult. Medicine today is completely different to 2k years ago. We have more knowledge and better understanding of the body and mind but let’s remember, only 60 years ago being gay was considered a mental illness. Was this man truly possessed by a demon? It’s easier to believe in these things when you don’t know any different. When we don’t understand something it’s easy to see magic, miracles, exorcism because it is soothing. There are many wonderful lessons to be learned from the bible which are as relevant today as they were when first written, but some elements of the tales are a little far fetched for my liking. The struggle of good and evil is real and in this day and age the lines are being scarily blurred which worries me but I wouldn’t cry out for exorcisms to be carried out to expel demons.
Sounds like an episode of Supernatural lol
Luke 11:27-28
[27] As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” [28] He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
“In essence, Jesus is saying, ‘Dear woman, I have indeed had a mother blessed by God, but you too can be blessed. Do not make the mistake of locating true blessing in the providences that surround your life. Rather, hear God’s word, trust him and walk in obedience”.
I’ve been praying each day for a country on the World Watch List, a list of the top 50 countries where Christians face the most extreme persecution. I doubt anyone looking in on what some of these people face would see them as blessed but it’s often the case that those most persecuted would disagree. I’ve also read today about Mother Theresa who, in our secular definition of blessings would be way down that list yet she listened to God’s word and kept it and was able to say this, ‘When you don’t have anything, then you have everything’.
I think it's very depedent on your outlook too? I have conversations when people hear about my disabilities and that I've had to give up my hopes of going back to teaching etc where they start with pity, but I genuinely consider myself to be the luckiest woman alive. I have a husband I love and who loves me, 3 amazing children when I was told I'd not be able to have any, 3 awesome rescue dogs, this place and some of the best friends that anyone could ever have. I consider those all to be my blessings.. Marc and I may not have money or our own house, we may not have the careers we hoped for, but we are so blessed. I truly believe that we are richer than so many who have so much more financially etc Does that make sense?
OldMike
26-02-21, 08:51 AM
Totally makes sense to me Suzi :)
Luke 11:37-54
[37] When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. [38] But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal. [39] Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. [40] You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? [41] But now as for what is inside you---be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. [42] “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. [43] “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces. [44] “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.” [45] One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.” [46] Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. [47] “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. [48] So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. [49] Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' [50] Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, [51] from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. [52] “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” [53] When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, [54] waiting to catch him in something he might say.
Today’s reading is not about whether Jesus was unhygienic and, I suspect, he purposefully didn’t wash his hands to trigger this debate...... The Pharisees and Teachers of the Law were in a position of responsibility to guide and teach the Jews about God. In actuality, by this time in the history of the nation, the majority of them were all about how best to ‘control’ the Jews to the benefit of these teachers. They taught and enforced one way, while behaving another - and had power and wealth as an end result (“they made a pretence of devotion to God in order to be admired by men “).
Thing is, hypocrisy is nothing new, and is still rife in all areas of life, across the world. But God really hates hypocrisy amongst the people who are supposed to be leading His people. The Apostle Paul had this to say to the Apostle Peter (Cephas) (James was the leader of the church in Jerusalem):
Galatians 2:11-16
[11] When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. [12] For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. [13] The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. [14] When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? [15] “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [16] know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
See I read it as being kind on the outside is just for show, but it's far more important to be kind on the inside...
Absolutely, but it’s a lot more too:
Matthew 23:13
[13] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Jesus is saying here that what they were doing was stopping the people they were meant to be teaching about God from actually knowing God - a much bigger crime
Luke 12:13-21
[13] Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” [14] Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” [15] Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” [16] And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. [17] He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' [18] “Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. [19] And I'll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.” ' [20] “But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' [21] “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
The commentary today reads:
“This isn’t just a story about the uncertainty of life, although that is a fact. No, Jesus puts his finger on the rich man’s real problem. He had made himself his god and treated that god richly; but towards the true God he had been a pauper (v 21). He was a worshipper of the ‘covetousness.... which is idolatry’ (Colossians 3:5). The superglue on his possessions was so strong that he foolishly imagined they were his permanently. But that glue contains a fatal poison which killed him, and he ended up with nothing”
So basically love God more than possessions and riches?
Yesssss but also, I think, about apostasy - turning away from God and towards idols
Luke 12:22-34
[22] Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. [23] For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. [24] Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! [25] Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life ? [26] Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? [27] “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. [28] If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you---you of little faith! [29] And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. [30] For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. [31] But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. [32] “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. [33] Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. [34] For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
I’ve always found this passage extremely challenging. I’m a born worrier, after all. But the commentary today states that, in the ‘grammar of faith’ all the imperatives of God’s words (commands: this is what you are to do) are rooted in indicatives (statements of fact: this is what God has done, or will do, for you and in you). ie, it is because of what God has done for us (gave up his Son for us all) that we can trust he will care for us.
I love this verse from 1 Peter. I try every day to do this. I don’t always succeed, but I try
1 Peter 5:7
[7] Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
I'm a born worrier too, and although I'd love to just let God do all the worrying, I'm also sure that they have enough to worry about without me and my life too itms?
Totally. But i try to tell myself that he is God, omnipotent and loves me, and you :)
Stella180
01-03-21, 10:34 AM
If we trust in God to feed us why is there so much famine in the world?
That’s a question that most Christians also ask, and are afraid of. This, I think, is the closest to an answer that I have....
https://www.gotquestions.org/starving-children.html
“3.6 million tonnes of food is wasted by the food industry every year in the UK” fareshare.co.uk
Stella180
01-03-21, 01:38 PM
There are many reasons for famine, including corruct governments and droughts but the passage states that God will provide what you need and maybe he does in a way but not everybody is able to access it. I know we're talking about a couple of thousand years ago but does that statement still stand today? Don't worry, God will give you all you need to survive. I might not have been starving to death but I can think of many occasions in my life where I have needed more than I had to get by and I felt I was left to suffer. Blind faith was never going to get me through, It just led to more abuse and distress.
Yes it still stands. Some can’t access it because of others greed. I’ve been heartened by the distribution of vaccines to countries that can’t afford it - perhaps, just perhaps, it might lead to less selfishness and more of the same in the future by wasteful first world countries
Edit: Genesis 1 tells us that mankind was given the job of caretaker over the whole earth. We’ve failed in our job, not God
Luke 13:1-5,14
[1] Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. [2] Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? [3] I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. [4] Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them---do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? [5] I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
"Apparently those making the report were looking for Jesus to offer some explanation of why bad things happen to normal people—in this case even while they were worshiping. The "sin and calamity" issue involves a presumption that an extraordinary tragedy in some way must signify extraordinary guilt. It assumes that a victim must have done something terrible for God to allow something so tragic to happen to them........ Jesus responded to the question, answering that the calamities suffered by the victims of the falling of the tower of Siloam were not related to their relative sinfulness. He then diverted the focus onto the interrogators, wanting them to focus on their own souls.
His mention of the fall of the Tower of Siloam added a nuance to his prior point: accidents happen. Therefore, even in the absence of persecution, death can come unexpectedly to anyone, irrespective of how righteous or how sinful they are”
(NB I don’t usually use Wikipedia as a reference source, but this says exactly what I wanted to say)
The issue of why people suffer is extraordinarily hard, and i don’t claim to have all, or even any, of the answers - this is an issue that has been debated as long as mankind has existed.......
I'm struggling to get my head round this one today.
Yeah, me too, every day. I know the teaching around this subject, but it’s so hard to accept. I don’t have blind faith (I’ve spent most of my life studying Christianity to try to figure out what I believe), but this is one of those topics where I try to accept that true faith is trusting God even (especially) when I struggle to accept something, and that I won’t ever understand everything about Him itms. I don’t always succeed in acceptance.....
I do try, but it's just something that I really struggle with.
Luke 13:10-17
[10] On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, [11] and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. [12] When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” [13] Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God. [14] Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.” [15] The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? [16] Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?” [17] When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.
This is partly about the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders (you work to give you donkey water!) but also about what is the purpose of the Sabbath. The book of Isaiah chapter 55 verse 13 calls the Sabbath a ‘delight’ and the passage above tells us the people were ‘delighted’.
Jesus says, in the Gospel of Matthew,
Matthew 11:28-30
[28] “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
“Jesus reminded the people of God’s actual intent for the Sabbath: unity with God, creation, and each other that was first found in Eden on page one of the Bible”. (Bibleproject.com)
This seems straight forward, but also difficult too.. I know it's about sharing love and healing every single day, but wasn't one of the commandments not to work on the Sabbath? So why is it therefore OK to do so?
Does this help?
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-the-sabbath.html
Luke 13:22-30
[22] Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. [23] Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, [24] “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. [25] Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' “But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' [26] “Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' [27] “But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' [28] “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. [29] People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. [30] Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
The questioner is not asking the question he wants to. What he wants to ask is ‘Lord, will I be saved?’ So, Jesus answers with ‘you need to come to the door and try to get in now, because eventually the door will be locked. And don’t confuse having heard me, or about me, with actually knowing me’.
But doesn't this go against the wider teaching that anyone who wants to will be able to enter Heaven if they have lived a good life and followed the teachings in the Bible?
Stella180
04-03-21, 02:10 PM
The more passages you put here the more I want to turn away from religion because of the manipulation.
That is a massive question, but I’ll try to answer it.
First, no one can enter heaven through their own deeds (living a good life and following the teachings of the Bible). Basically because nothing we do is good enough, perfection is the only way in as this commentary shows https://www.christianity.com/wiki/salvation/being-a-good-person-not-enough-to-get-into-heaven.html
Second, we can only be saved through repentance and faith. Both of these are gifts from God, where the Holy Spirit inspires our human response of repentance and faith to God’s call. And he calls all (Acts 17:30 “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.”) But the human response can only come from the human (whose heart has been opened to God through the gospel being preached) - and most won’t, most will be so stuck in sin they’re incapable of making that response. But God is delaying judgement day because he wants as many people saved as possible (2 Peter 3:9 “ The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”)
Again, I’ve barely touched the tip of the iceberg, and it’s a massively difficult and sometimes controversial subject, but hope I’ve helped a little
The more passages you put here the more I want to turn away from religion because of the manipulation.
Then that’s my failure, not God’s
Luke 15:1-2,11-32
[1] Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. [2] But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” [11] Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. [12] The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them. [13] “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. [14] After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. [15] So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. [16] He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. [17] “When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! [18] I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. [19] I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.' [20] So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. [21] “The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' [22] “But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. [23] Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. [24] For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate. [25] “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. [26] So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. [27] 'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.' [28] “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. [29] But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. [30] But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!' [31] “ 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. [32] But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' ”
You know, I’ve read this parable, and listened to talks on it, my whole life but the commentary I’ve just read has made me realise the mistake I’ve made in my preconceptions of it. The younger son wasn’t the only ‘lost son’. I mean, it’s obvious what this story was saying about the son who left home, squandered everything, then slunk back home with very little help of a welcome, only to be welcomed back with open arms and a party!
But it’s not so instantly obvious that the elder son is also lost. He may have stayed at home, running the family business, for all those years but it wasn’t done out of love and respect for his father, but instead he believes he was a slave! He believed that playing by the rules, with grumbling in his heart, was how this family worked. In the parable, Jesus was comparing him to the Pharisees, who also believed playing by the rules, even with grumbling towards God in their hearts, guaranteed them a way into heaven. It upsets me to say it, but there are far too many so called ‘Christians’ who believe they are slaves, rather than the child of a loving Father.....
Thing is, we never know whether this prodigal son returns home.....
I've always seen this story as the promise that no matter what you do there is always space for you in Heaven... All you have to do is go back to God and say you're sorry you f*cked up and you want to try to do better...
Interesting about the other son being lost, and sadly I've known enough Christians who claim to be full of faith but are in fact almost colouring by numbers but not actually giving anything of themselves itms?
Absolutely makes sense. I’ve met many. One nearly broke any chance I had at a faith. I was about 6 months pregnant with Jess and had gone to church with mum and dad (I wasn’t attending at that time, and wasn’t saved). He saw me after the service, took one look at me, knowing I was divorced and not yet married to Si, and said ‘I would say congratulations but, well, you know.....’. I was devastated and humiliated and it took me years to get past that - not only was his heart not right with the Lord, he almost destroyed any smallest amount of trust and faith that I had.
I've had similar and worse....
Stella180
06-03-21, 11:43 AM
Then that’s my failure, not God’s
No it’s the bible that is the problem. If it was written today there would be uproar. Is Jesus were an ordinary man in the 21st century what would you say about his personality type? These passages do not cover him in glory, they show him as a narcissistic asshole with a need to control people. I dunno, maybe it’s me current mindset but many of the selected passages make me uncomfortable.
I don't see that in those passages at all.... In this passage I see it completely differently. It's about following teaching and repenting for doing wrong...
https://www.martineoborne.com/was-jesus-a-narcissist/
Thank you, that article is really clear and easy to understand....
Mark 14:32-36
[32] They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” [33] He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. [34] “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.” [35] Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. [36] “Abba , Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
A change for today. I couldn’t make head nor tail of the reading in today’s passage or teaching in the Lent booklet on Luke, so decided to show you part of my reading from my personal daily bible study for today.
This has always been a favourite passage of mine. For several reasons. First, it shows that even Jesus, the son of God, was depressed. It says to me that it’s not sinful to be depressed. Whenever I’m in crisis, I’ve always known that the hardest thing is that God feels far away. When Jesus is dying on the cross, He shouts ‘my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ Yet, here, he still shows that he trusts completely in his Father.
“ Jesus, facing disloyalty, disappointment, distress and death, puts his trust in his loving heavenly Father and says, ‘Yet not what I will, but what you will’ (Mark 14:36c). He knows that God is his perfect Father, whom he can address as ‘Abba, Father’ (v.36a) – an intimate way of addressing him, almost like ‘Daddy’ or ‘Papa’.
He knows that God is all-powerful. In many ways, he wants to escape ‘this cup’ (v.36b). However, he trusts that God knows best and is willing to submit to his will. It is the supreme example for us when we are fearful of what lies ahead.”
I've always loved this passage too. I found it really comforting when I was younger and feeling really overwhelmed, that actually that was OK because even someone who had such power as Jesus also became distressed and struggled too. He may have been the son of God, but also showed his human side too.
But I've always found Mark easier to read and understand than Luke..
Luke 17:11-19
[11] Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. [12] As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance [13] and called out in a loud voice, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!” [14] When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed. [15] One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. [16] He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him---and he was a Samaritan. [17] Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? [18] Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” [19] Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”
In the Old Testament, God’s instructions to the Israelites concerning leprosy stated that, once anyone with leprosy recovered, only the priests could declare them ‘clean’ (healthy). So, these 10 lepers obviously saw Jesus as a priest and begged for him to heal them (let’s gloss over the fact that only one, the Samaritan, actually returned to thank him). In the Book of Hebrews, in the New Testament, it states that:
Hebrews 2:17
[17] For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Only Jesus, the great high priest, can declare us clean from our sins.....
Thank you. Whenever I've heard this the focus has been on the 9 who didn't return and praise God, but looking at it from the pov of the one who has changes the whole text. Thank you.
Luke 17:20-35,37
[20] Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, [21] nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” [22] Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. [23] People will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. [24] For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. [25] But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. [26] “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. [27] People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. [28] “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. [29] But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. [30] “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. [31] On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. [32] Remember Lot's wife! [33] Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. [34] I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. [35] Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [37] “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
Huh? Jesus says the kingdom is in their midst. But then refers to the signs that the ‘time is coming’. How can it be both? One term I often read about is that Christians are in the times of ‘now and not yet’. Both of these concepts refer to Jesus coming in first century Palestine to die on the cross. He is the ‘King’ so, wherever he is reigning, is where the kingdom is. We are in the ‘now’ because he first came to be the sacrifice and High Priest that makes us clean (as the lepers were in yesterday’s passage) before the Father. But Jesus will come again, at the end of time, in glory to judge the living and the dead, and herald in the kingdom of God. So we are in the period of ‘not yet’ until the return of Christ.
Revelation 11:15
[15] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
I struggle with trying to work this out - the here and now and the in the future....
So did I, hugely, before starting my studies. The simplest way I can think of it is, we are in between the first and second coming - Jesus has come, 2000 years ago and is here with his people (through the Holy Spirit), but His return at the end of time has not yet happened.
Not sure that helps....
I think it does, but it's still difficult! :)
Luke 18:15-17,25
[15] People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [16] But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [17] Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
During Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), Jews would bring their children to the local rabbi and ask for his blessing on them and their children. This may have been the background for these verses as parents asked for Jesus to bless them and their children. We don’t know why the disciples wanted to turn them away, perhaps it was just the end of a long day..... But Jesus made 3 points:
Let the children come to me (the word used here is for infants)
To such children (who are being brought to Jesus as the kingdom’s King for blessing - an act of faith in Jesus) belongs the kingdom of God
You won’t enter the kingdom of God if you don’t receive it like a child (ie as a free and gracious gift)
Like a free gift? I always thought this was about innocence and being sin free and childlike like not knowing any of the answers etc.... Accepting as a free gift sounds much easier, much more straightforward and easier to access itms?
Thanks for this lovely, I'm really enjoying the time I'm spending reading the extracts a couple of times and then the discussion with you/anyone else who wants to join in...
Stella180
11-03-21, 01:06 PM
Sorry I’ve been a bit of a party pooper the last few days on this thread. Struggling to get my head around a lot of things and some of the passages are challenging but I have been reading the posts.
I think it's definitely challenging, but I also think that this is a great thread and I've never really looked at the passages like this - Would you like to join "the Sanctuary" section and maybe we could do some more of this kind of thing - if Paula doesn't mind...
Stella180
11-03-21, 06:35 PM
I dunno.
It's an open invitation for whenever you may want to, never any pressure....
Stella180
11-03-21, 08:17 PM
I’m not convinced that I’d but a good fit. You know me, I’m finding the stuff in this thread difficult to handle and I don’t wanna be a negative force.
Being someone who is open and questioning isn't a bad thing.... imho
Stella180
11-03-21, 09:37 PM
Well if you think it’s a good idea and everyone else is ok with it...
I’m absolutely ok with it, personally the more questions I have to consider and research makes me even more sure of my faith. But I would like to say that questioning and even disagreement is a good thing. Negativity not so much
Luke 18:18-30
[18] A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [19] “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good---except God alone. [20] You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' ” [21] “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. [22] When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” [23] When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. [24] Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! [25] Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” [26] Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” [27] Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.” [28] Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!” [29] “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God [30] will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
(fh.org) “ Now, compared to others in your geographic area, you might consider yourself to be middle class, or your income may even hover near your local poverty line. But if you know how to read and write, if your home has electricity, and if the device on which you are reading this ....... belongs to you, chances are that you are in the top tier of the world’s most wealthy people.”
This passage isn’t about giving away everything you own if you want to have eternal life. The commandments Jesus mentions are number 5-9 of 10 which all relate to our relationships with other people. He hasn’t asked about 1-4, which all relate to our relationship with God, and 10 which relates to coveting
Exodus 20:3-11,17
[3] “You shall have no other gods before me. [4] “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, [6] but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. [7] “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. [8] “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. [9] Six days you shall labor and do all your work, [10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. [11] For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy....... [17] “You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
There is a lot of debate over what Jesus meant by the camel and the needle. Some say that the needle was a very narrow gate in Jerusalem’s walls that a camel would find very difficult to get through, some that the Aramaic for needle is very similar to the word for rope - and that would be very difficult to get a rope through a needle but perhaps not impossible. The general consensus is that he was making a point with hyperbole, that it’s impossible to get an actual camel through an actual needle.
However Jesus meant for these words to be taken, he’s saying that you can’t have two gods (Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money”) as this breaks commandments 1 and 2 (no gods before me and no idols). Again, this is not about giving up everything you own, but it’s about your attitude to possessions - are they more important than your relationship with God? Would you give everything you own away, if that’s what God asks of you? Or do you ‘worship’ possessions?
I know I have a comfortable life and losing that would be difficult. But I am always encouraged knowing that, what I would find difficult, God will give me the strength to do, if he asked it of me, as all things are possible with Him
Stella180
12-03-21, 09:26 AM
A jealous God? That doesn’t sound “good” to me.
I think that's a difficult concept, and I know when we were facing homelessness and not having enough money to make ends meet I really struggled with putting my trust in God when there didn't see a way out....
A jealous God? That doesn’t sound “good” to me.
Jealous is not how we think of it. It means that God is the only god and expects us to worship only Him
Suzi, I can’t even begin to imagine how that was. Thankfully you did make your way through. I know, though, that so many don’t and it breaks my heart.....
I was very lucky and eventually was able to speak to people who helped.... Had I known my lovely Rector then (or any of you who have been the best support system in the world) things would have been so much better....
Luke 18:35-43
[35] As Jesus approached Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the roadside begging. [36] When he heard the crowd going by, he asked what was happening. [37] They told him, “Jesus of Nazareth is passing by.” [38] He called out, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” [39] Those who led the way rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” [40] Jesus stopped and ordered the man to be brought to him. When he came near, Jesus asked him, [41] “What do you want me to do for you?” “Lord, I want to see,” he replied. [42] Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has healed you.” [43] Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus, praising God. When all the people saw it, they also praised God.
Jesus heard 2 things that stopped him in his tracks. Bartimaeus (Mark tells us his name in his Gospel) called out to the ‘Son of David’ which told Jesus he knew who he was - the descendent promised to King David 1,000 years earlier in 2 Samuel:
2 Samuel 7:11-14,16 NIV
[11] 'The Lord declares to you that the Lord himself will establish a house for you: [12] When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. [13] He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. [14] I will be his father, and he will be my son........ [16] Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.’
This descendent was to be the Messiah, the Christ (both terms mean ‘the anointed one), the one who would save his people. All of the Jews knew that he had been promised and were waiting for him to come and save them from their persecutors.
So, by calling to the Son of David, Bartimaeus was calling to the King of the Jews.
And Bartimaeus called out for mercy, and Jesus never refused that request. He believed, had faith and trusted in Jesus, and because of that, his faith healed him.
I've had this explained to me as having blind faith leads to God and then in turn to heaven.... That's never sat well as in RS (my teacher was epic) he always said that we should question the teachings and even more so our faith... Your explanation makes more sense to me as it explains it was knowledge which led to faith which led to Jesus and his healing...
I take comfort from Gideon in Judges, who asked God to prove who he was by performing some small miracles - even one of Israel’s saviours doubted at first!
Luke 19:1-10
[1] Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. [2] A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. [3] He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. [4] So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way. [5] When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” [6] So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly. [7] All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.” [8] But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” [9] Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. [10] For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
I love this story! It’s one that I heard so many times in Sunday school :). But I had always took it as a story about Zacchaeus, when I should have focussed on Jesus.
Tax collectors in 1st century occupied Palestine were universally disliked. They took taxes from the Jews to pass to the Roman occupiers, and were able to self determine their percentage. So, many tax collectors made themselves wealthy at the expense of their fellow Jews. Regardless of this, Jesus had made a point, many times, of including tax collectors among his followers - in fact one of his 12 disciples/apostles was a former tax collector (Matthew, formerly Levi).
Zacchaeus got up into the tree just because he wanted to see Jesus over the crowds. But Jesus knew he was there, knew his name, and, without any request or prompt from Zacchaeus, invited himself over ‘to seek and save the lost’.
“Jesus was seeking Zacchaeus. He knew where to look for him. And he found him. He always does”.
I too, have always heard this as being about Zaccheaus, but it really changes it thinking of it as about Jesus totally changes things. Thank you...
Luke 20:1-8
[1] One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts and proclaiming the good news, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him. [2] “Tell us by what authority you are doing these things,” they said. “Who gave you this authority?” [3] He replied, “I will also ask you a question. Tell me: [4] John's baptism---was it from heaven, or of human origin?” [5] They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, 'Why didn't you believe him?' [6] But if we say, 'Of human origin,' all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet.” [7] So they answered, “We don't know where it was from.” [8] Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”
Jesus knew the Chief Priests wanted a reason to arrest him, but the crowds loved him and they were scared they’d be attacked if they did. So they wanted to trick him into blasphemy (saying his authority to do all he had had come from God). This would give them a legitimate reason to have him executed - and is in fact what happened a few days later.
Jesus also knew that the time for his arrest hadn’t yet come (this incident happened in the final week of his life). So he answered their question with a question they couldn’t answer without getting themselves in trouble. This wasn’t about Jesus evading the truth and not wanting to say he was of God, in fact when he was finally arrested, at the right time, he answered their accusation:
Mark 14:62
[62] “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
I think this shows his cleverness and yet his vulnerability, knowing that no answer was ever going to be OK...
Luke 20:19-26
[19] The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people. [20] Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. [21] So the spies questioned him: “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. [22] Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?” [23] He saw through their duplicity and said to them, [24] “Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?” “Caesar's,” they replied. [25] He said to them, “Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.” [26] They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.
The teachers of the law and chief priests were, again, trying to trick Jesus into saying something that would mean they could hand him over to the Romans for treason. Again, he answered in a way they hadn’t anticipated. What is extraordinary is that he answered with his knowledge of the Old Testament, a subject they were supposed to be expert at!
Genesis 1:27
[27] So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
The image on the denarius was of Caesar. If he’d have answered the question with a ‘yes’ to paying taxes, the Jews would have questioned his loyalty to Israel. To answer ‘no’ and he would have been dragged before the authorities for treason. So, he says, ‘By all means let Caesar have the denarius if his likeness and inscription are on it. But only if you’ll let God have what he has stamped his likeness on and written his inscription on - you’.
This passage and the one yesterday show how people are there to trick Jesus into trying to say something wrong. Proves that people can't be trusted....
Stella180
18-03-21, 09:42 AM
Sounds like the snakes on social media who are constantly looking to take offence by your words and bully you because of it
Human nature doesn’t change, not without God, anyway
Luke 20:46-21:4
[46] “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. [47] They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”
[1] As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. [2] He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. [3] “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. [4] All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
Jesus hated hypocrisy, particularly amongst the teachers of the law and priests - they were supposed to teach Israel about God, and the majority were hypocrites who took from the people and rarely listened to their own, often severe rules and teaching.
As a sharp contrast, in this passage he sees the teachers of the law who had everything they could have wanted, and still took from those who had least. He also sees the rich making a show of donating large sums, which they could easily afford. Contrast this with the widow who would have had nothing in this time before the welfare state, who still gave her very last coin to God.
The following commentary really challenges me:
‘The real issue isn’t ultimately about money, is it? It’s about the heart. But too often our money sticks to our heart......... When you become a disciple of Jesus, you give him all you are and have. But have you gradually been taking it back? What difference does it make to remember that Jesus gave everything he had for you?’
I loved that story when I was growing up and it's always been relevant to my life. I've never been able to place notes into the offertory or donate large sums of money to the Church etc, but I've always felt that the "gifts" I was giving - which may just have been 20p were just as, or more valuable to those who can gift £100s at a drop of a hat itms?
It has always reminds me of the Carol "In the bleak midwinter..."
What can I give Him,
Poor as I am?
If I were a Shepherd
I would bring a lamb;
If I were a Wise Man
I would do my part,
Yet what I can I give Him,
Give my heart.
Luke 22:1-6
[1] Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, [2] and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. [3] Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. [4] And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. [5] They were delighted and agreed to give him money. [6] He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
This passage always hurts. To think that one of the people who had been Jesus’ most trusted disciples, who’d been with him for 3 years, every single day, decided to betray Jesus for money. I think it hurts the most because it resonates with my faith history. I was brought up as a Christian and firmly believed, as a teenager, that my faith was solid. Then, at the first big hurdle, I fell away. I am so grateful that God accepted me back into his family....
It resonates with my faith history too...
However, I've always wondered whether there was more to it than money for Judas... I firmly believe that there was something more to make him betray Jesus - his friend and teacher... Not sure I go with the concept of Satan taking over either.... I just don't think it'd have come back to money vs friendship, loyalty, admiration etc
My commentary led to this passage, Jesus talking to the disciples:
John 13:10-11
[10] Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” [11] For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
Basically saying, I think, that Judas was never fully committed to Jesus
Thank you, Paula, for sharing these amazing passages.
The Lent began from Monday in the Eastern Orthodox Church (main church in my country). This year, the Orthodox Easter will be on May 2.
Usually, we keep a harsh nearly vegan Lent for 7 weeks. I have refused only from meat during Lent because of certain health reasons.
Can I ask what health reasons love? I have complex medical issues and am always vegan ;)
Paula - I don't know. I still have hope that actually Judas did dedicate himself to Jesus, but that there was some other reason that the betrayal happened....
That’s because all your ugly ducklings are swans, love..... the way I see it, if there were any mitigating circumstances, it would have been mentioned later in the New Testament. As it was, I don’t think this mention in Acts would have been quite so stark...
Acts 1:18-19
[18] (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. [19] Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
That is calcium deficiency and the doctor strongly advised to maintain dairy products.
That’s because all your ugly ducklings are swans, love..... the way I see it, if there were any mitigating circumstances, it would have been mentioned later in the New Testament. As it was, I don’t think this mention in Acts would have been quite so stark...
Acts 1:18-19
[18] (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. [19] Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
Fair enough..... Can I still hold my belief that he wasn't the total irredeemable bad guy?
That is calcium deficiency and the doctor strongly advised to maintain dairy products.
Fair enough, if you've been told to do so then you should definitely follow that. (hugs)
Lol I would never want you to be anyone other than who you are!
Luke 22:7-23
[7] Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. [8] Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.” [9] “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked. [10] He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, [11] and say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' [12] He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.” [13] They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. [14] When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. [15] And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. [16] For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” [17] After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. [18] For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” [19] And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” [20] In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. [21] But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. [22] The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!” [23] They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
Jesus would have celebrated the Passover celebration every year of his life, and the sacrifice of the lamb to rescue the Israelites from Egypt was what his nation had been built on. And his life and ministry were defined by it:
John 1:29
[29] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
On the Mount of Transfiguration earlier in his ministry:
Luke 9:31
[31] They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.
The Greek word that Luke uses, here translated as departure, is more accurately translated as ‘exodus’
Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt to release from bondage to Pharoah, which was a shadow of the reality, pointing towards Jesus leading his people out of bondage to sin
I know this will sound stupid, but I'd never made the connection between sacrificial lamb and "Lamb of God"....
I love the Communion service. I know it mostly word for word. It's something so sacred and something that I feel is so important to my faith.
Stella180
22-03-21, 09:53 PM
Never taken communion. Church rituals scare me.
Can I ask why they scare you? No judgement, just curiosity..
I’m not really a rituals kind of person, but communion is beautiful - it’s a powerful reminder of what my Lord gave for me
Stella180
23-03-21, 08:58 AM
Haha, ok scared probably isn’t the right word but I just don’t feel comfortable with many things related to the church rituals and that also includes public singing, and exchanging the peace to name a few. I guess I just don’t like interacting with a bunch of strangers when it’s not or my terms. Being fed and watered by a man in a dress in front of and alongside these strangers is just a bit too weird for me. When I attended church I was only there for the sermon. I preferred to hide as close to the door as possible so I can make my escape without being spotted lol.
At the Church I go to, on a Wednesday morning there are normally around 20ish people and everyone offers everyone else Peace and it's lovely. It really is such a lovely part of the service. My Rector is wonderful and he is happy for you to partake or not to partake, to have a blessing or just sit... He is also really happy for you to get up and walk around or walk out - he has had mh issues himself, so he "gets it" and is one of the most lovely people!
Just shows how different different churches can be. We don’t exchange the peace, our Rector never wears a dress (unless it’s a funeral), just shirt, trousers and a dog collar, and, indefinitely, I’ll be able to ‘attend’ the service from home via YouTube. We don’t ‘do’ rituals, and no one has to take communion, in fact it’s only recommended for people who have a Christian faith
Luke 22:31-38
[31] “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. [32] But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” [33] But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” [34] Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.” [35] Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. [36] He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. [37] It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” [38] The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That's enough!” he replied.
Simon Peter (and this is something I never realised before) always comes first when the apostles names are listed in the Gospels, and also when the ‘inner circle’ of three (Peter, James and John) are mentioned. He was always destined to be the leader of the new Christian church. So, Satan was always going to target him to trip him up. Before this night was over, Peter would deny knowing Jesus three times.
Yet Jesus prayed, not that Peter would resist the temptation to deny him, but that Peter’s faith wouldn’t fail. This wouldn’t be the last time Peter would screw up, but God had a job for him to do and knew that the frail, wobbly, new church needed him and his experiences to survive.
I’ll admit, this story always gives me hope - no matter how much I screw up, God still wants me
‘So whatever we’ve done in the past, our lives need not be fruitless. Failure is never final when Jesus prays for us’.
I've denied my faith for a multitude of reasons, yet this story also gives me the same hope too. That as long as I still have faith - whether I openly talk about it - something very new to me - that I'm still going to be welcomed...
Luke 22:39-46
[39] Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. [40] On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” [41] He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, [42] “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” [43] An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. [44] And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. [45] When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. [46] “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”
Jesus was in so much pain here that, even after the angel strengthened him, he was in anguish, prayed more earnestly and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
Why? Because the ‘cup’ he was facing was the wrath, the anger, of God towards humanity that had turned their faces away from him.
Paul’s letter to the Galatians says,
Galatians 3:10,13
[10] For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” [13] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
The ‘curses of the law’ were set out in the Old Testament, as told to the Israelites by Moses during their time in the wilderness:
Deuteronomy 28:15-20,45
[15] However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: [16] You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. [17] Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. [18] The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. [19] You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. [20] The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [45] All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you.
And Jesus took these curses on, for humanity - for me! A wonder and a blessing I do not deserve
I have to confess to finding all that quite hard to understand and work out what it's actually saying itms?
Stella180
24-03-21, 11:40 AM
He mush for forgotten about me. No one can have the bad luck I get so I must be cursed
I don't believe in people being cursed...
I have to confess to finding all that quite hard to understand and work out what it's actually saying itms?I think we have to remember that the scriptures - like other ancient documents - were documented by scribes who may have taken advantage of using 'artistic licence' or that they interpreted the meanings incorrectly or even embellished the contents to scare the living daylights out of people...the Piers Morgan's of their day.....the God of my understanding doesn't make threats or curse anyone...I think that you can take a lot of that content with a pinch of salt....someone has altered the 'script' for some reason or another. God is not to be feared, and some of the religious 'offshoots' seem to 'get off' preaching hellfire and brimstone to those poor ignorant souls - now and in the time of Christ - to mould them into subservient quivering wrecks giving their elders total dominance over them. The Free Church of Scotland and The Free Presbyterian Church, to name but two.
He mush for forgotten about me. No one can have the bad luck I get so I must be cursed You aren't being cursed at all, and certainly not forgotten. You're being challenged so that you realise your own strength. Positive things have come out of it......sort of a 'See? Good things can happen'. It's in HIS time not yours.(nod)
I don't believe in people being cursed... Neither do I Suzi, they're threats created by evil cretins to frighten people into submission. God mustn't be feared, after all we are his children and he is our Dad and I believe he has our best interest at heart. Nobody said life was going to be a piece of cake. When I'm pee'd off with everything and feel I've been forgotten or left behind and wronged through no fault of my own - or so I think - it's usually me that creates my own version of hell. I remember years ago when dating an AA old timer, I said to him in his kitchen.." I can't seem to do anything right!!!" His reply was "Maybe it's because you're doing something wrong" such a simple answer, but it made me rethink my actions and decisions.
Yes, but that’s what Jesus came for - so we aren’t cursed! God had his ‘salvation plan’ in place from the very beginning
Thank you Flo and Paula, I'm loving having somewhere to talk, ask questions, debate, learn and understand.... Faith and religion can be so difficult and divisive, and so different from each other. I'll never forget my Rector saying that "sometimes there's too much religion in faith" and I think he's right...
Luke 22:66-71 NIV
[66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and the teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] “If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.” Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.” [70] They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You say that I am.” [71] Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.”
The Messiah/Christ (Hebrew/Greek) translates as the ‘anointed one’ and harks back to the very beginning of Israel’s identity as a nation. Their first high priest, Aaron (brother of Moses) was anointed by Moses, on God’s instructions, to act as a conduit to God.
Exodus 29:4,7 NIV
[4] Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the tent of meeting and wash them with water. [7] Take the anointing oil and anoint him by pouring it on his head.
So, the chief priests had a lot at stake if Jesus was to be known as the great High Priest, the anointed one. Jesus knew this, and knew they would try to trick him with their questions, as we’ve seen before. At no point in this conversation does he admit to being the messiah, or the Son of God but that didn’t matter to them - they still used their own questions as ‘evidence’ of his blasphemy to take to the Romans (the Jews were not authorised to give the death penalty)
Jesus just didn't "confess" to anything, and didn't tend to give straight answers at all...
No, but would you in the circumstances? Especially when you knew their hearts, and that they weren’t going to listen?
Luke 23:1-16,18-25 NIV
[1] Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. [2] And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.” [3] So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied. [4] Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no basis for a charge against this man.” [5] But they insisted, “He stirs up the people all over Judea by his teaching. He started in Galilee and has come all the way here.” [6] On hearing this, Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean. [7] When he learned that Jesus was under Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. [8] When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. [9] He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. [10] The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. [11] Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. [12] That day Herod and Pilate became friends---before this they had been enemies. [13] Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, [14] and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. [15] Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. [16] Therefore, I will punish him and then release him.” [18] But the whole crowd shouted, “Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!” [19] (Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.) [20] Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. [21] But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!” [22] For the third time he spoke to them: “Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him.” [23] But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. [24] So Pilate decided to grant their demand. [25] He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will.
Do you see the change in the Chief Priests focus on what Jesus was ‘guilty’ of? They had tried him for blasphemy (not something the Roman Empire cared about), they went to Pilate and stated 3 things that the Roman Empire would care about:
1. Misleading our nation (rebellion - large crowds followed him but he never tried to mislead them or turn them against Rome)
2. Forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar (tax evasion - the conversation actually was, [22] Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?” [23] He saw through their duplicity and said to them, [24] “Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?” “Caesar's,” they replied. [25] He said to them, “Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.”’)
3. Saying he is a king (Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, but not a political or military king, the kind Rome would be anxious to eliminate.)
Even Herod wouldn’t condemn him
And yet, a weak Pilate couldn’t stand up against the crowd - but if he had, God’s purpose would not have been fulfilled.....
I've always struggled with this bit. I can see that Pilate wouldn't want to go against the crowds and lose popularity, but I don't know why the crowd were so against Jesus in the first place....
https://www.christianity.com/jesus/death-and-resurrection/holy-week-and-passion/why-did-the-crowd-turn-against-jesus-so-quickly.html
But, also, there is a theory that Barrabas was a freedom fighter, trying to overthrow the Roman conquerors. That would have made him very popular to the Jewish crowd, especially as that’s the sort of king they wanted Jesus to be
Luke 23:6-12
[6] On hearing this, Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean. [7] When he learned that Jesus was under Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. [8] When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. [9] He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. [10] The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. [11] Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. [12] That day Herod and Pilate became friends---before this they had been enemies.
This Herod was Herod Antipas, son of Herod the Great who had ordered the massacre of Bethlehem’s baby boys just after Jesus’ birth in an attempt to get rid of a ‘rival king’. Antipas had beheaded John the Baptist ( Jesus’ cousin) after making a foolish promise to his wife’s daughter (his wife was actually his brother’s wife but he’d taken her from his brother - not exactly a moral family...). Antipas had previously been worried that Jesus was John back from the dead.
So, with no remorse for what he’d done to John, or compassion for the exhausted and demeaned man in front of him, he questioned the Lord Jesus. It’s no wonder that Jesus (who had earlier called Herod a fox) refused to answer his questions. So Antipas and his soldiers ‘ridiculed and mocked him’ verse 11. All of this fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah:
Isaiah 53:3,7
[3] He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. [7] He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
But Jesus bore man’s judgement because he knew it was God’s judgement on mankind, in whose place he stood - so that he could save us. It was all endured for us.
Politicians never change huh? So many comparisons can be made with that behaviour and the behaviour we see now and recently how the less well off are treated - look at the dramatic rise in food bank use, the pitiful pay rise for NHS and other key workers, whilst the rich get richer and bankers get huge bonuses and government give themself a lovely pay rise too...
Luke 23:26
[26] As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus.
(Mark 15:21
[21] A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.)
The study book has chosen to focus on just one verse today. It’s often a throwaway verse, which can be missed in all the drama surrounding its place in the final few hours of Jesus’ life. Mark gives a little more detail, in naming Simon’s children - Alexander and Rufus. The question is, how does Mark, from Jerusalem, know Alexander and Rufus, who are from modern day Libya? The likely answer is that they became Christians. So, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and forced to carry a massive crossbeam in the place of a man who had been beaten to the point of death, looks to have set his whole family on the path of believing in Jesus Christ. It encourages me (and is the reason I’ve ‘put myself out there’ by sharing with you this Lent journey I’m going through) that just one ‘chance’ event, sometimes just one throwaway comment, can be what inspires someone to want to know more about the gospel of Christ
I've really enjoyed these discussions with you. It's often challenged the thoughts I had about passages, and I've not read much of Luke before, so thank you.
Stella180
30-03-21, 12:40 PM
I've has a lot of mixed thoughts and feelings surrounding the passages you have shared. I'm far from a "good christian" and have had an on off relationship with the church throughout my life but I am glad you have stuck with this thread despite little response from the members. I hope people have at least read all that you have shared.
I am so glad it’s given you both pause for thought ;)
It really has. I've found myself coming back to these passages/themes during the day/week too. I've really enjoyed it.
Stella180
30-03-21, 05:21 PM
I have really struggled with some of them, tbh I struggle with a lot of stuff in the bible for a variety of reasons but it’s been good to have a discussion
That's what I've loved - actually having somewhere to talk things through, whether we all agree or not, it's a safe space to talk things through.
Stella180
30-03-21, 06:25 PM
Totally agree. It’s good to see the perspective of others. I feel that the bible is open to interpretation and seeing passages in a different way and discussing our views in a respectful manner is always going to be a good thing.
Luke 23:27-31
[27] A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. [28] Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. [29] For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' [30] Then “ 'they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ' [31] For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
This prophecy looked forward to AD70, when the Romans besieged Jerusalem and destroyed the temple, and refers to a prophecy in the Old Testament book, Daniel, which the Gospel of Matthew references.
Matthew 24:15-21
[15] “So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel---let the reader understand--- [16] then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [17] Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. [18] Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. [19] How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! [20] Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. [21] For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now---and never to be equaled again.
But all these prophecies also look forward to the Day of Judgement at the end of the world. It’s believed that the ‘abomination’ in Revelations is the antichrist. Judgement sounds harsh, but needs to be shown in the light of Jesus’ sacrifice for us just a few hours later, and the best way I can describe it is by this analogy:
“Two people went through school and university together and developed a close friendship. Life went on and they went their separate ways and lost contact. One went on to become a judge, while the other’s life spiralled downwards and he ended up as a criminal. One day the criminal appeared before the judge. He had committed a crime to which he pleaded guilty. The judge recognised his old friend and faced the dilemma, which, in effect, God faces.
He was a judge so he had to be just; he couldn’t simply let the man off. On the other hand, he wanted to be merciful, because he loved his friend. So he fined him the correct penalty for the offence. That was justice. Then he came down from his position as judge and wrote a cheque for the amount of the fine. He gave it to his friend, saying that he would pay the penalty for him. That was an act of mercy, love and sacrifice.
The illustration is not an exact one. Our plight is worse – the penalty we face is death. The relationship is closer – your Father in heaven loves you more than any earthly parent loves their child. And the cost is greater. It cost God far more than money – he came himself, in the person of Jesus, and paid the penalty of sin.
God is not soft on crime. In his justice, God judges us because we are guilty. Then in his mercy and love he comes down in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, and pays the penalty for us. Through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, God is both just and merciful.”
I'm kind of struggling with this one... I don't really understand it. I'm going to let this filter through a bit and come back to it later...
Ask away, I’ll try to make sense of it for you :)
I don't understand the link for weeping for their own children, to then those who have not been able to have children are being "blessed"....
Stella180
31-03-21, 04:43 PM
Blessed as they don’t have the pain and worry about their child’s well-being brings?
Oh ok. As I understand it, the prophecy initially relates to the Jews rebelling 40 years from Jesus’ death. The Romans held the city to a siege, where its reported that the Jews starved and (I’m sorry this is grim but relates to your query) some ate their own children. When the Romans finally broke through, they destroyed the city and the temple. 1.1 million Jews died.
Jesus was warning them of the horror that was to come, including that children would starve or would erm, not ;(.
Many Christians listened to the prophecy and left the city in time.
I wasn't aware of that, that's horrible! Thanks though...
Luke 23:32,39-43
[32] Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. [39] One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” [40] But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don't you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? [41] We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” [42] Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ” [43] Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Of 24 chapters in Luke’s Gospel, he devotes 2 whole chapters to the final 24 hours of his life, which is understandable as it’s with a view to those hours that Jesus has lived all his previous hours. And he decides this very short conversation is important enough to spend 5 verses on. Because it is with a view to what Jesus would accomplish in those few minutes that he lived all previous minutes.
One criminal would shout what most of us would shout in those circumstances ‘Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!’ (ie, save me!)
The other, though, somehow recognised the truth of Christ in his final moments:
He confessed his guilt: ‘we are receiving the due rewards for our deeds’ v41
He recognised Jesus’ innocence: ‘this man has done nothing wrong’ v41
He sought mercy: ‘Jesus, remember me’ v42
He confessed Jesus’ lordship: ‘when you come into your kingdom’ v42
And that, my DWD family, is all any of us has to do to have the following:
He was given gospel hope: ‘today you will be with me in paradise’ v43
It does seem a really good insight into Jesus's whole life in those few verses...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-j3NZEdHQaI
Luke 23:44-49
[44] It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, [45] for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. [46] Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last. [47] The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” [48] When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away. [49] But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.
I’m going off piste a bit here, and not following the study book. Because I want to share something very personal to me. Matthew’s Gospel records Jesus as saying, at this point, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ Matthew 27:46. Jesus had, for the first time in eternity, felt the lack of the Father’s presence as he died, took our sin, and temporarily went to hell, so that we didn’t have to. The Father had to turn his back to Jesus, because He can’t be in the presence of sin.
Even before I committed my life to Jesus, every time I went into crisis, I felt the lack of the Father’s presence. And this is why it took me so long to become a Christian - how could He abandon me when I needed Him most? Except it wasn’t God who turned his back on me, I turned my back on Him. My pain meant I couldn’t see that He was with me even in the worst moments of my life. The words of the famous ‘Footprints on the Sand’ prayer sum it up for me:
“One night I had a dream…
I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord, and
Across the sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; One belonged to me, and the other to the Lord. When the last scene of my life flashed before us, I looked back at the footprints in the sand. I noticed that many times along the path of my life, There was only one set of footprints.
I also noticed that it happened at the very lowest
and saddest times in my life
This really bothered me, and I questioned the Lord about it.
“Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you,
You would walk with me all the way;
But I have noticed that during the
most troublesome times in my life,
There is only one set of footprints.
I don’t understand why in times when I
needed you the most, you should leave me.
The Lord replied, “My precious, precious
child. I love you, and I would never,
never leave you during your times of
trial and suffering.
When you saw only one set of footprints,
It was then that I carried you”
Stella180
02-04-21, 09:57 AM
Wow that was beautiful.
That was beautiful. Totally beautiful.
I love Footprints.. It's something that I've come back to so many times and it always brings tears to my eyes. It was years ago that I was talking about faith to a friend of mine who is one of the most religious people I've ever met - I love her, but sometimes it's a bit much itms? Well she was the one to introduce me to it and when we were talking it just "felt" itms?
Footprints is amazingly beautiful. I carry those words in my heart always
Luke 23:50-56
[50] Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, [51] who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea, and he himself was waiting for the kingdom of God. [52] Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body. [53] Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. [54] It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. [55] The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. [56] Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.
Matthew 27:57
[57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus.
John 19:38
[38] Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away.
Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish Council, so one of the leaders. But he had also become a disciple of Jesus in secret. If he was ever going to come out into the open, this was it. (He was also very wealthy and had bought himself a tomb, which had not yet been used.) Going to Pilate and making his request was a big risk for him but, if he hadn’t, Jesus’ remains would have been thrown into a common grave. If he hadn’t, no one would have been able to say which were Jesus’s remains. Luke had to make it clear that Jesus had died (which had been verified by a Roman soldier and as Joseph and his men carried the body to the tomb). Also, Luke made it clear that a variety of witnesses had seen where he was buried - there was no question that people had ‘gone to the wrong tomb’ on Easter morning.
There’s also a symmetry in this passage. At Jesus’ birth, he was cared for by a man named Joseph, who laid him in a borrowed resting place. At Jesus’ death, he was cared for by a man named Joseph, who laid him in a borrowed resting place.....
I always loved that it was a dude called Joseph who was the person who picked him up and took such an important, ever loving and tender job as taking him to somewhere safe and respectful as the tomb. I wonder how the convo went between Jospeh and Pilate went - "hey you I'd love to take Jesus's body to keep it safe", "but why?" "Because I think he's awesome and needs to be honoured..."
But this surely also shows something about Pilate too. He had the choice there to either allow Joseph to take him, understanding that Jesus did deserve to be taken down and treated differently to others who had been crucified - which proves that he's been moved by what happened... Or he had the choice to arrest Joseph for being a follower.... I wonder how he managed to remain seen to be doing the right thing, whilst allowing Joseph to take Jesus and give him the dignity and the honour he deserved...
Stella180
03-04-21, 11:31 AM
I’m pretty sure Joseph had a justified excuse for his reasons for wanting to tend to the body of Jesus. If he was hiding his allegiance so well am reasonable confident he would have a good excuse and his wealthy status and standing in the council no doubt played a big part too.
Actually, I suspect he’d have lost his place on the Council and been ostracised. The Jewish leaders were furious that the tomb was empty and that Jesus’ followers carried his message far and wide after his death - especially the news that he was resurrected
Luke 24:13-49
[13] Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. [14] They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. [15] As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; [16] but they were kept from recognizing him. [17] He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. [18] One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” [19] “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. [20] The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; [21] but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. [22] In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning [23] but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. [24] Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.” [25] He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [26] Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” [27] And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. [28] As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. [29] But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them. [30] When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. [31] Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. [32] They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” [33] They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together [34] and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” [35] Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. [36] While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” [37] They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. [38] He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? [39] Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” [40] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. [41] And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” [42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [43] and he took it and ate it in their presence. [44] He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” [45] Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. [46] He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, [47] and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. [48] You are witnesses of these things. [49] I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Luke tells the story of a journey within a journey. This shorter journey explains the meaning of the longer journey that has occupied most of his Gospel. The 2 disciples explain what has happened over the past week, the events that have devastated their hopes. Jesus then walks them through a whole series of passages from the Old Testament that show these events were exactly what Scripture had promised would happen to the Messiah.
Jerusalem was Jesus’ destination, but it was not the end of the journey for his disciples. Just as he had set his face to go to Jerusalem, they must now set their faces to go to all nations to proclaim his gospel and to call people to repentance and faith in him.
I think it's a great passage about their journey so far and foretelling what is to come...
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